This is the number two question I get, after:
Are there pets in heaven?
Both questions are tough to answer in a simplistic way!
First of all, there is often a “question behind the question.” So, before answering, I counter with “What do you mean by Lutheran?”
Let’s start with Martin Luther (1500’s in Germany). I once was blessed to meet the greatest Luther scholar of the 20th century, in person, Roland Bainton, in the early 80’s after a lecture. I asked him why he never joined a Lutheran Church. His witty response was: “I’ve never seen one. Luther himself, ironically, would not be welcomed in most Lutheran churches today.”
Martin Luther
So, are you Lutheran? If you can answer difficult theological questions simplistically, you probably aren’t following Luther’s pattern.
Asked whether there is pre-destination, Luther answered “yes and no.” Asked if we can lose our salvation, Luther answered “yes and no.” Asked if we are basically sinners or totally justified, he answered “yes.” Luther was a Bible teacher, and not a systematic theologian. He loved the (obvious) dramatic tensions in scripture and was OK with just leaving them be. His counterpart, Calvin, seemed to have a high need to cram the Bible into a neat system.
There are parts of Luther’s teaching and personality that I, without reservation, condemn and reject. His bizarrely anti-Semitic view of European Jews was an outrage. His mowing down of the peasant revolt was inexcusable. His eschatology was primitive at best and incomprehensible at worst (He thought Pope Leo was literally THE Antichrist). He had no sense of Christian mission to the majority of the non-Christian world.
But he was spot-on right about the whole Bible revolving around Grace, Faith, and Christ. And he was crazy-courageous in standing up to the whole authority structure of his world (Popes and Emperors) to make it stick. He rediscovered Paul’s “Jesus plus nothing” and remade much of the Western Church around it.
Along with Isaac Newton, he is one of the most mercurial and influential humans ever to walk this planet (Newton, like Luther, had his mega-quirks). By deconstructing the monastic world-view (which had been dominant for centuries), philosophically and practically, Luther helped lay the foundation for the Modern World in which you and I live.
Ironically (I thought of this while walking the ancient stones of the Via Sacra), Luther and Paul were the two greatest historical figures ever to walk the streets of Rome. No one at the time, in that city, even noticed them. Luther and Paul could care less–they just went out and re-made the world. All of the emperors and heroes of Rome amounted to: not much. We name our sons Paul–and our dogs, Nero.
Am I a follower of Paul or Luther? No. So perhaps I’m not a Lutheran, in that sense. Luther didn’t want us to use the term “Lutheran” (see his exact quote at the bottom of this page) and Paul, in 1 Corinthians, was horrified that people would label themselves with his name. I, like Luther and Paul, am a follower of Jesus Christ alone.
But what about faith families? What about denominations? I am totally a product of Lutheran theological-cultural upbringing, and can’t do much about it. It’s like being Jewish, it’s a cultural tattoo which you can’t remove without lasers. Even if I (God forbid) were to become an atheist, I’d be a Lutheran atheist.
If I were to join a Baptist or Catholic congregation, I’d still be a Lutheran member of that church. If you are Jewish or Lutheran, you understand the tribal implications of these labels :-). I’d actually, if I had my ‘druthers, like to be a charismatic Anglican (the Alpha London folks), but I’m too blue-collar Lutheran to pull it off long term.
So, is the church I pastor, Robinwood Church, Lutheran, because I am the primary teacher? Perhaps. We affirm (in our bylaws) the unaltered Augsburg Confession, the Small Catechism, and the ecumenical creeds. We would qualify, thus, for joining the Lutheran World Federation.
But we are non-liturgical. Totally. More than you think. And we are very Pentecostal in our expression. It doesn’t look “Lutheran.” We have no Euro-centric trappings of any kind. We are a California beach church that meets in a warehouse. No Lent. No Advent. No lectionary. No altar table. No permanent cross. I don’t own a clerical collar. There isn’t a single hymnbook in the building. It would be hard to find the word “Lutheran” on our website. I only wear shoes if it’s a cold day. The music is loud.
But if any trained theologian were to visit us for three Sundays, he or she would say:
They sure aren’t Calvinists or Arminians. Not Roman Catholics. Not Southern Baptists. Not Eastern Orthodox. Not liberal North American PC activists. Not Anglicans. By default, they must be Lutherans. Expressive, non-legalistic, missional–but pretty dang Lutheran at the core.
If Luther were to show up at Robinwood Church, I’d probably tell him off (privately) for that goofy Jew-bashing (and a few other things) of his, but we’d pour him a beer (and cut him off at two) and share his love of God’s Word, and the tensions that are simply there in it.
Is Robinwood Church Lutheran? Yes and no 🙂
And like Luther and Paul, we don’t care if “important” people don’t notice what we’re up to, we’re busy remaking the world.
++++++++++++++++
For more information:
Robinwood Church Worldwide Podcast
My book explaining Pentecostalism to Lutherans.
Follow me on Twitter @RobinwoodChurch
Join the Facebook Group: Robinwood Church
LUTHER’S QUOTE on LUTHERAN LABEL:
“People should not call themselves ‘Lutherans’. ‘What is Luther? After all, the teaching is not mine. Neither was I crucified for anyone . . .How then should I — poor stinking maggot-fodder that I am — come to have men call the children of Christ by my wretched name?’ Not so, my dear friends; let us abolish all party names and call ourselves Christians, after him whose teachings we hold.”
Who said that?
Martin Luther.
–from, “A Sincere Admonition by Martin Luther to All Christians to Guard Against Insurrection and Rebellion 1522”
39 comments
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July 24, 2010 at 3:11 am
Sarah Whittenburg
Am I lucid at 7 a.m.? Yes and no. The thoughts are good but the time is not and I am peaceful with that dichotomy, at least most of the time. I am hoping, David, that you are not a voice crying in the wilderness but a voice that will resonate with Luthrans brought up in the “faith” or not. For me, being Lutheran is not about the liturgy, red/green/blue hymnals,
or other trappings that would identify us with a Lutheran church.
It’s about the heart and a belief system where Jesus rules and we operate in the often not quite understood realm of faith and grace that leads us to accept what God offers freely and moves us forward to more love for the world wherever that takes us. When I affirm my belief in an all-powerful God who can do anything and created everything, I am content with what I perceive as unswered questions about “why” and “how
come?”. It is my friendship with Him and what He wants that
moves me through the need for all the answers and total undertanding and into a faith walk that has changed my life and
the lives of those around me. At the end of reading your thoughts, I decided to pray that God would raise up more
Robinwood Churches to give those of us who need and want a
spiritual home a place to live out their love for God’s world.
Just the other day my husband and I were discussing sermons given as far back as 1966 and what stood out to us that changed our lives….some in Lutheran churches and some not.
Thy were not theological masterpieces nor “correct” by today’s
standards but they were from the heart and contained truths about God that dispensed with the old definitions and gave us new ways to look at Truths. It would be an interesting dinner
conversation to have with others in the same way the question
“what is your favorite passage in Scripture and why?”
July 24, 2010 at 3:44 am
Kevin Gooding
Wonderfully stated!
As a member of and a pastor in another tribe–the Methodists–I understand completely how much I am a product of that particular system/culture. Wesley’s particular take on grace dominates my life. But, as you wonderfully say, I am not a follower of Wesley. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. Life is not in John Wesley (or in the United Methodist Church). Life is in Jesus. Period.
Thanks.
July 24, 2010 at 5:24 am
lylesnyder
Good question. I believe in self-definition more than the defining of others. As such, I hear you to be defining yourself and the church you serve, Christian first, and Lutheran second. However, self-definition does have its limits. Some self-definition can be out of sorts with reality. If I said I was a woman with brunette hair, well that would rather silly since I am a man with blond hair. In the question you pose, I do not think your self-definition is out of sorts with reality.
But really, let’s get to the more sinful side of things and dish on defining others! How I view whether someone has a Lutheran understanding is if their theology contains total reliance upon God. The best way to define this one I think is someone’s view on the 3rd article from the Small Catechism. “I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith…”
One of the ways I liked to surprise confirmation students was to tell them that “I have never accepted Christ as my savior.” After a few looks of shock, then I said “It was Christ who accepted me.” I understand “Lutheran” to mean that we know our faith is something given to us, not something we do.
July 24, 2010 at 6:29 am
Bob Rognlien
Great stuff, as usual, Dave! I too have The Lutheran tribal tattoo and carry it with me no matter what denominational setting or faith tradition I find myself in. I too am a follower of Jesus above all others. I too embrace the seemingly paradoxical tensions of the Bible and Jesus himself.
For some reason though, my whole Christian life, living in a Lutheran world has never been enough for me. I have always been drawn to other faith traditions and run with those who claim them as their own. This has been a natural, instinctive thing for me, not the result of a politically correct ecumenism. These last few years I finally understood why.
As Lutheran as I am, I have come to realize Luther got half of it right. Luther was “spot on,” as you say, about the basis for our relationship with God being grace alone through faith. As such he saved the Christian movement from completely losing it’s bearings 500 years ago. Where fell short was in capturing the other half of Jesus message, “the good news of the Kingdom.”
Jesus constantly talked about the Kingdom of God and consistently demonstrated a power to enact that Kingdom everywhere he went. Luther, on the other hand, relegated this central theme of Jesus to an awkward “two kingdoms” theological construct that very view have ever resonated with and most have misconstrued as justification for social quietism. Note the Lutheran response to Hitler in Germany (Bonheoffer and friends aside).
Luther’s role in history was to recover grace as the basis for our Covenental relationship with God and each other. It wasn’t until Asuza Street that the Kingdom implications of Jesus’ new Covenant would begin to be recaptured. Since then the Chrisitan movement has started to rediscover the explosive potential for life and world transformation not seen since it’s first three centuries. Dave, I believe this is why you have always added “pentcostal” or “charismatic” to your Christian identity, because it captures more profoundly the Kingdom dynamic that was so important to Jesus but so lacking in Luther.
The DNA of the Bible and Jesus has two primary strands: Covenant (relationship) and Kingdom (representation). Adam and Eve were created in God’s own image (relationship), but they were also given the mandate to have dominion over all creation (representation). The people of Israel were given a special relationship with God through the Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic Covenants (among others), but they were also called to be a light to the kingdoms of this world. Jesus restored our intimate relation to God as our own Abba through the power of the cross, but also gave us the mandate to continue doing what he did to change the world through the power of the Spirit.
Covenant is about recovering our true identity as children of the heavenly Father through the grace of Jesus and learning to live out that relationship in faithful obedience. The Kingdom is about claiming the authority that comes from being children of the King of the universe and learning to allow his transforming power to flow through us as it did through Jesus. Lutherans are the best in the world at Covenant, but we are sorely lacking in Kingdom. This is one of the reasons we have historically done well in established Christian cultures but have not fared as well in hostile or non-Christian contexts (parts of Africa excluded!).
The reason Lutherans and other Reformation-birthed movements have died or are dying in the Western world is because they largely lack the Kingdom strand of Jesus’ DNA. We Lutherans must recover this essential aspect of the movement Jesus started or we will no longer have a significant part in what God is doing to renew creation in the 21st century.
I have learned much of this from Mike Breen, (a blue-collar Anglican Charismatic from northern England–right down your alley Dave!). His seminal book, “Covenant and Kingdom: The DNA of the Bible,” is coming out this fall and I highly recommend it. Check out http://www.weare3dm.com for more information on this and other resources. Let me know if you are interested in finding out more …
Thanks Dave for continuing ton stimulate our thinking. One point I have to disagree with is your contnetion that Paul would be horrified for anyone to identify themselves as his follower. Paul was against factions using his name as their label (1 Cor 1-3), but in 1 Corinthians 4, as elsewhere, he tells them to imitate him as part of the discipling relationship they have established. While we follow Jesus above all others, we all need physically present Rabbis (a Jesus with skin) to help us learn how to follow Jesus. If we are to truly follow Jesus, then we will also have disciples who follow our example, just like Jesus and Paul (cf Paul’s relationship with Timothy and Timothy’s relationship with others). This is the example Jesus set for us, it was the basic unit of the early church, and it is the pattern we need to recover in our time. In 1 Corinthians 11:1 Paul says it so clearly, “Imitate me as I imitate Christ.”
Thanks for listening ….
Bob Rognlien
September 13, 2010 at 8:48 am
Craig Nissen
Very interesting Bob. I’ve frequently asserted among friends that the Lutheran church (in my experience) is more the product of being an institution (state church) than its own theology. I’ve said this to explain most of what I think is wrong or what’s gone wrong (sin assumed and aside). I still think I’m partly right, but you’ve got an interesting point on something missing from the start. Will chew on this a bit. If you’re the Bob Rognlien who wrote Experiential Worship, I’ll also say thanks for that.
September 13, 2010 at 10:26 am
Bob Rognlien
Criag, thanks for the feedback. I agree the institutionalization of Luther’s movement robbed it of significant elements. But I still think it was a reform of one half (a critical half in 1517) of the biblical DNA.
And yes, how many Bob Rognliens can there be? I did write EW. Peace!
July 24, 2010 at 6:58 am
Randy Wawrzyniak-Fry
Not having had a Christian upbringing I lack one of those tribal tatoos, but if you looked close enough (however like staring directly into the sun I would not recommend it) you would probably find the tatoos of Bob Newhart, Bill Cosby, Shelly Berman, et. al. There’s probably some Charles Schultz in there because while reading Hous’ post I could hear Lucy’s voice in my head talking to Charlie Brown saying “If we can find out what’s wrong with you we can put a label on it.”
July 24, 2010 at 5:25 pm
Mrs. Hume
My forefathers came from Europe. I think we need to be far more euro centric in our thinking. Not because people from Europe are any less fallen, but because the civilization there was more influenced by Christianity than any other. Any human society has room for improvement but Europe was so very blessed because Christianity was far more widespread there than anywhere else. When we disrespect our ancestors and their achievements we disrespect what devout Christians labored diligently to establish by the grace of God. Does anyone really believe that greats like Newton or Euler could have achieved what they did if the word of God had not been so widespread in those societies? I don’t.
Now, that Europe has secularized, it is collapsing. Europe’s native population in 2100 will only be 25% of what it was in 2000. Without Christ as the foundation, they have lost the will to live. We should definitely look to Europe to see what happens when we forget God.
July 24, 2010 at 7:04 pm
Kathy McDougall
Please do not think I am criticizing what you said. My thought process is usually different than others. What part of their Christianity do you think helped them to their discoveries? I am not disagreeing with you but wondering how Christianity helped them become who they were.
Was it the structure of the church that lead them to investigate the structure of creation?
Was it that belief that they were God’s creation and therefore able to do anything?
The belief in a Creator God would perhaps lead them to believe that there had to be a reason for everything in the universe.
Am I close to what you were thinking?
July 24, 2010 at 9:43 pm
robin
good post Dave…loved reading it.
July 25, 2010 at 4:00 am
Holly Hansen
Sounds like a bunch of post-modern psycho babble to me. Oh brrrrrrrrother !
July 25, 2010 at 4:23 am
Mrs. Hume
“Am I close to what you were thinking?”
Maybe. Just the fact that so many people in Europe were Christians created a society where gifted individuals could flourish. Sure some like Newton were very religious but some were only somewhat so like Louis Pasteur. Since the beginning of time people had wanted to discover the secrets of the universe, but they didn’t live in a society where they could flourish and discover, and invent things. Living for Christ gave individuals the inner peace to continue on despite hardships in a way that no other motivating factor could sustain them. Like Newton, it is not just he, but his mother, his maid, his pastor, his doctoral supervisor, his colleagues, all with a higher purpose for getting out of bed every day, live or die, succeed or fail, but all to the glory of God. Consider this, imagine on any given Sunday in Europe during Newton’s time, the percentage of people united in the sacrament in holy communion with one another and the true living God. Can you imagine anything more powerfully uniting and sustaining? Some say behind every great man, there is a great woman. However, I would submit that behind the greatest civilization that the world has ever seen, there was the highest power in the universe, the crucified Christ.
July 26, 2010 at 2:33 pm
Kathy McDougall
Thank you for your explanation. I agree that in that time the Christian church created a society where great thinkers were supported and nurtured. The creative arts were also greatly enhanced by the patronage of the Catholic Church. The opportunity to create works of art for the Church furthered their skill as well as supporting them so they could explore other methods of expressing themselves . The Renaissance was a time of awesome expansion.
July 25, 2010 at 10:06 am
Dwaine
This may not be as theologically deep as earlier comments, but I can’t help but offer a thought I’ve had of friends who are regular in their church attendance:
Some of my friends are [Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian,(choose your favorite denomination)], and some of them are also Christian.
July 25, 2010 at 4:13 pm
Joe Johnson
I am first of all an apprentice (student) of the Master teacher, rabbi Jesus who also is King and Lord and Savior
I am biblically Lutheran for the most part, but not always historically Lutheran in terms of traditional ways of doing churchl. Jesus poclaimed the Gospel of the Kingdom not justification by faith, which is not a bad thing to preach. In my upbringing in the LUtheran church(I attended a Lutheran High School, Lutheran Bible School, Lutheran College, Lutheran Seminary and did an internship in the Lutheran Holy Land of Norway ) I heard a Gospel of conversion, accept Jesus and receive the gift of eternal life. The institutional Lutheran church has procliamed a Gospel of social justice (making the world a better place) but not historicallly, proclaimed, manifested and taught the Gospel of the Kingdom churches). Ever since my time with John Wimber in the 80’s my mission has been to make disciples who do Jesus’ ministry,traing people and teach in a way that makes disciples. However my focus was primarly being an apprentice of Jesus by healing like Jesus did. I am learning that living in the kingdom is being with Jesus in order to become like Him in other ways along with healing– loving like He loved and obeying what He taught. Grace is not just God’s unmerited favor. Grace is God acting on our behalf (empowering presence of the Holy Spirit) to enable us to do what is impossible on our own power. I am learning how Jesus did what He did by arranging my life around the things He practiced, like solitude and silence, submitting to the Father, abandoning outcomes to God. I am first a kingdom person whose family of origin is Lutheran. My family of destiny is those who want to enter and live in the kingdom with Jesus I am learning how to be the kind of person who trusts in the Father like Jesus did.
Jesus proclaimed that the kingdom is available. within reach, repent, which means for me rethinking the way I have been thinking about Jesus. I am learning what I thought was impossible is possible–that I could be the kind of person who finds it easy to obey Jesus (easy yoke).
July 26, 2010 at 7:34 am
Howell Foster
Hous, once again you speak for me! Yet I struggle a little more with the confessional side of my faith in Jesus. However, we need you to continue stirring up the Christian Lutheran community! So there then!
July 29, 2010 at 5:32 am
Luke Allison
“Jesus proclaimed the Gospel of the Kingdom not justification by faith, which is not a bad thing to preach.”
Joe,
I believe this is a misconception.
The publican and the Pharisee? The rich young ruler? Most of the book of John? “Receiving the Kingdom like a child”? The words “justification by faith” are never used, of course, but the concept is there just as plain as day.
The narrative trajectory of all 4 Gospels is toward the cross and the empty tomb. The Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Justification by Faith are one and the same, since you can’t have one without the other, and vice versa.
CH Ladd’s “The Gospel of the Kingdom”, while somewhat older, has been very helpful to me in understanding the dichotomy.
July 26, 2010 at 9:02 am
Brian Gigee
David, I like this piece. Sort of. Yes to some of it. No to another of it. I would blast Luther, too, for his anti-semitism. And I wouldn’t have to cut him off at 2 beers becuase I would offer him “sweet tea” (TX style tea) or a cup of my really thick stick your spoon straight up in it coffee. He would jump at the chance for the table talk and think less of what was on the table eh?
In the late 1980’s George Gallup’s poll on Religious Affiliations in North America produced a figure of about 18 million Lutherans. At the time the ELCA and the LC-MS cold only account for about 8 million of those persons meaning that 10 million Americans were “saying/parading” that they were Lutheran when the 2 largest Lutheran demonations couldn’t account for one of them. If that’s the “cultural tattoo” you speak of then that is somewhat most certainly true. However, to say we are Lutheran and to do othewise is like calling a rose bush an oak tree when we know that is not the case. And just for the record, most “Lutherans” on an individucal basis wouldn’t qualify to be a member of the Lutheran World Federation for the very reasons you suggest Robinwood would.
But, what I think you are describing ( and you most likely have in other settings) is that what people call Lutheran or denominationalsim is in severe decline…disappearing…and that is not a bad thing… contrary to some other blogspots… as I believe what we ARE experiencing is finally a Christianity that is authentically American. Just as our “meltling pot” traditions and attitudes have helped make America strong and globally unique, our churches are experiencing a melting/blending together of many styles and traditions to formulate a brand of Christian worship and behavior that is both reformational (Luther’s gift) and missional (Paul’s gift ala Matthew 28). I’m not sure what to call it yet…but I’m seeing more and more of it…
So, in the end, yes or no, it doesn’t matter if Robinwood Church is Lutheran….because the mission now in aChristiand/non-Christian/LessthanChristian USA… is reforming us… Brian Gigee, Pearland, TX
July 26, 2010 at 10:03 am
Jay Egenes
Let’s see.
Luther said (and I’m sure he said something else somewhere else–over-emphasis on consistency was never one of Luther’s faults) that worship had to include the reading of the word of God. Nothing else made the list of what had to be included for it to be worship.
The sermon, together with reading the text, ought to be around half an hour. Teaching sermons are good because most people have low levels of biblical knowledge.
It’s good (but apparently not required) to pray.
It’s good (but not required) to serve the Lord’s Supper. When you serve the Lord’s Supper, somebody has to say the Words of Institution before distribution the elements (and it’s better to serve both Body and Blood).
That’s Luther’s list. Everything else is stuff people made up. Do it if it helps. Don’t do it if it doesn’t.
Dave, except that your preaching/teaching often exceeds that recommended time frame, I’d say you’re probably painfully Lutheran.
Grace and peace,
Jay Egenes
July 26, 2010 at 11:11 am
David Housholder
AC VII all the way!
July 26, 2010 at 10:04 am
Jay Egenes
Trying again, forgot to mark “notify me …”
July 26, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Kathy McDougall
I believe that Luther was a turning point in our global understanding of God and also the Bible. He showed us that everything in the Bible must be looked at through the lens of the fact that, although we cannot earn our salvation, God believes in us and what we can accomplish. We also learned that God does not want to be a distant God but he wants to be a part of our messy, messed-up life. Every day and every minute. Wow! How great is that?
I proudly proclaim that I embrace these ideas of Luther’s. But the discoveries did not end with him. Since then God has spoken to countless people and revealed many pieces of the puzzle of who God is. We continue to learn and grow, not only as individuals, but also as a faith family. The things that were needed in the past to teach what we should know do not necessarily help us now. We do not want to lose the knowledge gained but we can let go of the lesson.
The culture of Lutheranism was essential in creating who we are today to the ones who were raised in it. Still, that does not mean we need to raise the next generation as we were raised to make sure they learn the same lessons. They are different, times are different but fortunately God is the same. We, as followers of Christ, need to learn the lessons and find a way to teach those lessons to others. Paul knew this when he taught in Athens and he adapted his teaching so all could relate and understand.
Robinwood is Lutheran because all of our teaching is based on Martin Luther’s revelations (not his human prejudices). We want to show what we have learned to others in a new and fresh way. That does not make us less Lutheran but more. Luther’s fondest hope was to make the bible and what he learned available to everyone. We work very hard to find new ways to connect people to God’s love. I think Luther would approve.
July 27, 2010 at 8:45 am
Brian Gigee
When I lived in New Orleans and pastored Grace Church there, I realized that the highly RC city (75-80%) was a tremendous mission field as those living there introduced themselves as one of 2 flavors…”practicing cathloics” OR “non-practicing catholics.”
This was a great opportunity to introduce myself (often when called, “Father,” while wearing a clerical collar) as a partner in the confessional, liturgical, evangelical, sacramental, reform movement of the
Church Catholic…” which normally got a “HUH?” in response.
Lutherans are reformational… most have forgotten… and the greatest reformation going on right now is within that same reformation movement… pulling away from that which has become institutional Lutheranism…
July 27, 2010 at 7:34 am
Mrs. Hume
What I don’t understand is why the name “Luther” stuck on the original Evangelische Luther Kirche, but the name Concord did not.
I mean really, the Book of Concord defines our understanding of the Bible, not Luther. Obviously he was the spark and apparently the main influence, but the church actually only declared agreement with his ideas as articulated in the Book of Concord. They never got to some lame position like advocating all his ideas just because they agreed with his main arguments. The focus was and is those doctrines in the Book of Concord and teachings that do not violate it.
July 27, 2010 at 11:09 am
Jay Egenes
Yes, we are a confessional, not a liturgical church (I try not to cringe when I hear us described as “liturgical”).
What makes a church Lutheran, I believe, is having a pastor who cares about the confessions and how they apply today–who’s in the historical conversation about what the Book of Concord (and some select group of other important Lutheran writings) means.
But how many Lutherans (excluding those who are or are related to pastors) have any idea what the Book of Concord is?
Maybe the minimal level is Augsburg Confession and Luther’s Small Catechism.
But how many people really know about that stuff and understand it?
I had a conversation yesterday with a woman who was raised Methodist. She wanted to know what the difference is between Lutheran and Methodist. Rather than go into detail, I simply told her that (1) Wesley’s conversion experience occurred while studying Luther and (2) we are in “full communion”–meaning I could pastor a Methodist congregation or a Methodist pastor could pastor a Lutheran congregation.
My guess was that the detail wasn’t that important to her. We may discover whether I was right.
July 27, 2010 at 1:02 pm
Mrs. Hume
My 12 year old son has a copy of the new pocket edition of the Book of Concord. It includes a daily reading guide to read through in a year. So hopefully he will find it accessible.
July 28, 2010 at 2:55 am
Reynolds Anthony Harris
David. This post was nicely done and I have forwarded it along. Loved your Twitter comment the other day. Although I disagree with you on a range of social issues I deeply respect your intention and shoes off scholarship thanks for continuing to invite Luther into the gestalt buddy give a call when you are in Minneapolis
July 30, 2010 at 10:27 am
Bjorn Lervik
Great topic. I run across many in the Lutheran church who seem to know what type of Lutheran is the best kind, as there appears to be many different types of Lutheran. In my limited understanding of Lutheranism, our Dr. Martin was pretty broad and open as to how we should exercise our faith, (especially faith, and not reason, which he called a whore!) This does not please left-brain dominant people because they want to box God in to their brand of Lutheranism, and then want to impose it on me. Being a stubborn Norski, I would rather figure this out for myself. I think I’m learning, though….and as one leader on my staff said, “the reformation is not over!” A non-Lutheran in the Prophetic community, named Jim Goll, said Luther came to him in a dream, and said, “Finish what I started!” I like that witness as it gives us room to encounter a God who is so much bigger than our theologies. Dave keep probing the depths!
September 18, 2010 at 11:42 am
Glen Carlson
Bob, you brought up the topic of Kingdom. In this whole discussion there is a great deal of talk about the Kingdom. This excites me for I am looking for people who are Kingdom Thinkers. Throughout my ministry (40year) I have always thought of myself as being a kingdom thinker. As an individual it is easier to be kingdom, but when one is tied up in denominationalism kingdom thinking seems to go on the back burner for we don’t seem to tolerate others who think different. Today I believe God is moving Christendom into a Kingdom mode. Are we ready? When I travel among different churches the emphasis to a great extent is still on denomination. Throughout my ministry I have had many callings. In my new calling, God is calling me to focus on the Kingdom. At the moment I am struggling with what this means. This leads me to ask many questions. Why does Jesus use the term Kingdom while we use our denominational name? When we go out and plant churches do we plant denominations or the kingdom? Is there a difference? It seems when I talk to people about the Kingdom of God there is no excitement. It is as if people either are not interested or they do not know what I am talking about. Are there people out there who are Kingdom thinkers and put it into practice? If so what is Jesus saying to you as to what that means? To be a kingdom thinker do I need to let go of my denominational thinking or do I just expand my denomination thinking? Is kingdom thinking and denominational thinking the same thing? Today we use the term “non-denominational.” Does that mean it is Kingdom? Will Kingdom thinking unit Christendom? Inside a denomination kingdom thinking is a hard lesson to learn. I think most of us like to think of ourselves as Kingdom thinkers….but are we. I sometimes free parachurch organizations ( such as Graham, Promise Keepers, different missionary societies etc.) have founds the secret to be kingdom for they reach all. Is the church ready to become kingdom? What sacrifice does the church have to make in order to become a kingdom thinker? Maybe the heart question is What is Church today?
September 20, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Bob Rognlien
Glen,
Anyone who is not excited about God’s Kingdom has not yet experienced the Kingdom! I don’t put any hope or trust in deonominations. They are simply human contstructions trying, for better or worse, to provide the local expression of Christian community with support and accountability.
I believe the key is to find the right combination of Covenant (a committed relationship of grace with God and each other) and Kingdom (allowing the transforming power of God to flow through us in order that God’s will is done on earth as in heaven).
My goal is to yeild more fully everyday to the Spirit so I can learn to live in both Covenant and Kingdom at the same time as Jesus did!
The promise is if we keep seeking this we will find it!
Peace,
Bob
September 20, 2010 at 4:19 pm
Glen Carlson
Sept 20
Bob – I attended your church and enjoyed it. But I still ask the question
WHAT IS HAPPENING AT “CHURCH” TO TURN PEOPLE AWAY WHO ARE SEARCHING FOR “KINGDOM” The following an example from a young person who came to lead worship at our “church” this summer. We invited him back and this is his response.
“thanks for the song. we had a great time. unfortunately we’re both moving away from church attendance. thats kinda why l__ and m___ moved in with s__ and n__. we’re all thinking along the same lines about what it means to be the church so we ve all stopped going regularly to church meetings. R__ and his family are thinking along the same lines too. i don’t think either of us can commit to anything regular. but it was great to come worship. i hope we inspired people; not about wanting a better more upbeat church meeting, but rather about considering community as more valued than just giving it an hour a week. thanks for having us!” I find many are thinking this way. To me thinking kingdom draws me to Jesus.
Glen
September 20, 2010 at 4:37 pm
Bob Rognlien
Glen,
I think this is an incredibly important question. The problem is that attending church an hour or two per week does not create genuine community, no matter how engaging it is. In our busy, consumeristic culture we need to find ways to help people relearn how to do life together in a way that follows the pattern Jesus set for us.
Jesus gathered people into large crowds where they received powerful teaching and ministry (what our worship gatherings should be), but he also gathered people into smaller groups (the twelve disciples) to teach them by example and through relationship how to do the things he did (this is what “discipleship” is meant to be). Jesus also gathered people into medium sized groups (the 70/72) and sent them out to do the things he modeled and taught them to do (this is what we call “mission”).
At Good Shepherd we used to focus on gathering people for the large weekly worship serives and then added various programs to help meet people’s needs (including small groups). The result was a highly consumeristic kind of Christianity that centered around the staff and the church campus and was increasingly ineffective. Now we see weekly worship gatherings as one part of a more balanced, Jesus-shaped life in which we invite people into small groups for intentional discipleship and into mid-sized groups to go do the mission of Jesus out in the world away from the church buildings. Most of the discipling and mission is carried out by non-staff members.
This is what we are learning from Mike Breen and the people at http://www.weare3dministries.com. They developed this approach from the New Testament in a highly post-christendom/post-modern setting and it works! I highly recommend it to anyone who feels called to empower missional disciples as Jesus did.
Blessings,
Bob
August 2, 2012 at 8:49 am
Matthew Anderson
Hi Bob,
I realize this post is a couple years old now, but I’ll respond anyway…
Does this mean you’ve departed somewhat from EW? Let me clarify:
I met you a few years back at a EW workshop. I appreciated many of your ideas and much of what you said. My only concern at the time was that the model seemed to require a vast amount of resources and time to carry out. It seems like the new model of ministry you’re talking about at GS would require some those resources to be moved elsewhere.
Perhaps this wasn’t the case at your church particularly, since you were “experienced” (please excuse the pun) in that worship model, but certainly in other contexts churches might have to chose where to allocate staff, volunteers, and resources.
Grace + Peace,
-matt
August 3, 2012 at 2:47 pm
Bob Rognlien
Your observations about Experiential Worship were correct, in my opinion now! I still stand by the basic principles that I have written and spoken about regarding EW, that biblical worship is holistic and is meant to engage and empower a response on all four levels (intellectual, emotional, volitional, and physical). However, I have made a major shift in my thinking and practice about the relative priority of large worship gatherings vs. smaller discipling groups and mid-sized missional communities.
I used to think and have written that our large weekly gatherings for worship are by far the most important thing we do as a faith community. For some reason I didn’t notice that, although Jesus gathered large crowds and attended the synagogue on the Sabbath, he didn’t put his stock in them because he knew how fickle crowds can be. In fact, whenever they showed signs of becoming consumeristic he simply raised the Kingdom challenge bar so high that the consumer types went away (see John 6),
Jesus put all his eggs in one basket: discipleship. Not just transferring information, but offering an ongoing, in-depth mentoring relationship so that his disciples would learn to actually do what he did and be empowered to do the same with their own disciples, etc. In addition to this Jesus lived his life as part of an extended family (see Mark 1-2 where he is living with Peter’s extended family “oikos” in Capernaum) and carried out the mission of the Kingdom with that house-full of people. Later he identified the 70/72, trained them, and sent them out to expand the mission.
All of this to say, that we still plan and lead experiential worship gatherings at Good Shepherd, but we don’t put all of our eggs in that basket any more. We don’t invest as much time and resource into those gatherings, but we still design gatherings that are meant to help people experience God and respond to him intellectually, emotionally, volitionally, and physically. Also, we aim our worship gatherings more at building up and equipping disciples than trying to attract and reach unchurched people. We still welcome newcomers in our midst and try to help them understand what is going on, but the content and format is designed to strengthen disciples so they can be the ones to reach their unchurched friends, neighbors, and co-workers where those people live by living life as part of an extended spiritual family on mission together.
One of our new values when it comes to implementing Experiential Worship is “lightweight and low maintenance.” You can still engage people in a holistic way and invite them to respond to God in worship without all the fancy bells and whistles. It is amazing what you can do with a video clip from Youtube and a pile of rocks when you let the Holy Spirit fill and lead the process! We have particularly simplified our response times. Where we used to work hard to make the response opportunities a symbolic act creatively tied into the metaphor of that day or series, now we typically give people a chance to reflect on what God is saying to them and what he wants them to do about it. Then we will often invite people come to receive prayer for God’s power and wisdom to follow through in faith on that response. Or they might write something on a piece of paper and keep it or bring it to the altar, etc.
I would encourage you to continue to pursue worship that engages people’s heart, mind, soul, and strength, but to invest at least as much time and resource in mentoring discipleship in small groups and missional lifestyle in mid-sized groups like Jesus did.
If you want to chat more about this give me a call, 310-803-0721.
Peace,
Bob
September 27, 2010 at 5:46 am
Brian Gigee
For Bob and Glen, the idea some folks have that denominationalism is no longer relevant is, IMHO, an attempt to create an excuse for not being part of Christian community. This is not a new thing. Even Paul had to deal with people who followed this person or that over another and continues today.
People who opt out of ‘church’ or ‘denomination’ in order to seek the kingdom are only redressing the core value of community, accountabilty and mission and I think then in some cases are missing out on a whole bunch of joy… Despite my sadness over ELCA voting outcomes, I’m pleased to be part of a people who work diligently year round, decade after decade to end world hunger in our life-time and that we can get much more accomplished denominationally than a hand-full of folks who would rather seek the kingdom than share in a weekly visible time of saying quielty through prayer, Word, song and table…”I’m for God…I’m for the Kingdom..I’m with you…let’s work together…”
October 16, 2010 at 5:58 pm
Mrs. Hume
” I’m pleased to be part of a people who work diligently year round, decade after decade to end world hunger in our life-time ”
Hunger for what?
October 18, 2010 at 3:36 pm
Brian Gigee
> Mrs. Hume, with every beat of your heart and my heart a child dies on this planet from hunger, malnutrition and poor water sources. Bread for the World, the World Health Organization and many other institutions and agencies are working together to end global hunger in our life-time.
There is enough food on the planet to feed every person 5 good meals a day. This is both a justice and cooperation effort of church and governments.
As a member of the ELCA I, as are 1000’s of others, thankful to be part of a church that seeks an end to this global problem. I cannot do this alone; but collectively, we can. It is evangelical work as it is done in Jesus’ name.
July 7, 2011 at 5:54 am
Duane Larson
Really well done, Dave. Your focus on the “inseparable singularity” of grace, faith, and Christ–the heart of Luther’s theology as well as his necessary ability to go paradoxical!–indeed qualifies Robinwood as a member of LWF (though the congregation would need o declare itself a denomination to join!).:) More importantly that very focus on the inseparable singularity is what enables us all to unite notwithstanding our penultimate variations (like liturgies, language games, cultures, etc.). Thanks for this powerful summation.
August 2, 2012 at 8:29 am
Matthew Anderson
You do have a liturgy – it may look very different from traditional liturgy, but it’s still liturgy. Liturgy is simply a worship pattern, and I’m certain you have patterns in your worship. The question is not whether you have liturgy, but what your liturgy consists of and looks like – i.e., to what extent does it value or depart from liturgical traditions, and why?