These colors don’t torture. Ever.
Waterboarding is sub-human.
Invented in the Spanish Inquisition. Fun times.
The average person lasts 14 seconds before cracking.
Many survivors suffer from lifetime suffocation anxiety.
And what if you get the wrong guy? And he has nothing to share? Most likely permanent mental damage.
We cannot give the green light to Abu Ghraib behavior.
I am so embarrassed for our presidential candidates that they had a debate on this last night.
For the record, Michelle Bachmann and Herman Cain came out last night in favor of waterboarding. As was Rick Perry.
Huntsman and Paul said no. Paul was vehement.
Where does Romney Stand? Gingrich?
A debate.
On torture.
“Enhanced interrogation techniques.”
Good Lord, how Orwellian a phrase can you craft (comment via Brian Zahnd)?
I’m planting a flag on this issue.
Where do you stand?
Can Americans bomb neighborhoods (Germany 300k civilian bombing deaths, Japan 700k, in World War 2)?
Can we send drones into compounds, regretting the “collateral damage” (another Orwellian term)?
Please hear me; I am not a dove. Still regret not doing special forces when I was young. I am against all forms of gun control.
But either we stand for higher ideals, or our fighting is no longer worth bleeding and dying for.
34 comments
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November 13, 2011 at 3:25 pm
Lakeville
amen
November 13, 2011 at 3:35 pm
Jess Knauft
Thanks Dave. I agree you. By the way, that is also the position of the conservative Lutheran apologist, international law expert and human rights activist, John W. Montgomery. You should call him up and do a telephone interview with him for your show.
November 13, 2011 at 4:10 pm
David Housholder
GREAT idea Jess. By the way, you need to do more radio. You were a great guest.
November 13, 2011 at 4:30 pm
Jess Knauft
Thanks for the invitation. However, I was never on your show. It must have been another person who went by my name! But if I get a chance I’d love to be on your show. The waterboarding issue is interesting. Our southern California Annapolis Navel Academy parents club (Deb and I were on the leadership board) had one of the ethics professors from that institution speak to our group a few years back. If I am not mistaken, I do believe they would also agree with you – at least on the torture issue.
November 13, 2011 at 6:53 pm
Angela Shannon
Indeed.
November 14, 2011 at 4:30 am
Matt
I certainly agree that torture is wrong in 99% of cases; but what we do not have access to is how many times it may have played a part in saving many innocent lives. I think many people have the assumption that there is a congo-line of people waiting to be waterboarded but I would think (or would like to I suppose) that it is used when the risk outweighs the cost. If 100 people die because a person won’t talk, what is the solution to this problem? I really don’t think torture is a first option but rather a “there are no options left” case where its either that or risk many people dying. What are your opinions on alternatives in these cases?
In terms of usage, I have faith that the government utilizes the highest order of discretion in these cases, but the government seems to keep showing us that that faith can be misplaced.
I don’t mean to condone torture but I suppose I see it as a last effort in a very desperate attempt to save lives. I would pose this question as well; if you knew that waterboarding had been the result of a terrorist divulging info that saved (insert any number) lives, would you say that he still should not have been waterboarded?
I’m just playing you-know-who’s advocate so to speak, not trying to ruffle any feathers!
November 14, 2011 at 6:11 am
Lakeville
For me, being a Christian means that each morning when I get up I ask myself how I can best live my life consistent with the teachings and example of Jesus who I believe to be the Christ. Would Jesus torture under any circumstance? Personally, I think not.
November 14, 2011 at 6:34 am
Luke Allison
Here’s a provoking question, though: Is living in a cage NOT sub-human?
November 14, 2011 at 6:37 am
Rob
I think a little bit if the elephant in the room is that if our government said, “waterboarding is the limit, we will never do worse than that.” I would be willing to accept it. I am not naive enough to believe that we do not do worse things to our prisoners. Physical pain, dog bites, fingernails, chopping off digits, even murder, are just a drop in the bucket of things that I have no doubt happen, and will be denied for a long time. That is the part I am not ok with.
David, I believe that waterboarding has resulted in information that has saved lives. If I am reading your position correctly you are supportive of a soldier shooting and killing an enemy that is attempting to do the same to him (or her). Is an enemy that has been captured, that has information that can prevent the death of that same soldier (locations of IED’s as an example,) less dangerous than an enemy with a gun? If you are ok with shooting someone to save a life (in combat), why is holding them down, putting a cloth on their face, and pouring some water on worse than that? In a way the ends are the same (soldier lives), and the means are different (killing an enemy vs. severe discomfort). I do realize that my example assumes that everyone captured and put through waterboarding has something of value to divulge, and that is not the case in practice. Again though, what is the limit. Waterboard 2 people to save 1 life? 5 people?
November 14, 2011 at 7:36 am
MJ
War is hell, literally. There is no moral option when your choice it to call for the death of 700k Japanese, or by not dropping the bomb, assign 100′s of thousands of U.S. soldiers and more Japanese to a death sentence.
Leave Hitler in power, are you kidding?
What would Jesus do? Jesus’ reign of peace would have prevented the war in the first place. But too many did not heed his voice.
The same logic applies to interrogation that leads to actionable intelligence. Do you make the head of a terrorist organization cry “uncle” (keeping in mind that he had every opportunity to give up the goods before the measures became painful), or do you say, “let’s not make him cry, instead let’s take the chance that thousands more will die at the hands of those committed to such evil.”
To fight terrorism morally, you need an upstream approach…shining the light of Christ into the hearts of those who would otherwise have pursued evil.
November 14, 2011 at 8:22 am
David Housholder
Never said “leave Hitler in power.” I am a hawk, not a dove.
But I am an honorable hawk.
If we go all “Nazi” on the Nazis, what does that make us?
November 14, 2011 at 9:21 pm
MJ
Just curious what an honorable hawk General would do when he knows that German munition factories are built in the middle of cities next to hospitals and schools…
I ask that rhetorically just to point out that in the midst of war with a dishonorable enemy there are some awfully difficult choices to make.
Does bombing those munition factories make us Nazis? I don’t think so.
Remember we defeated the Nazis and helped rebuild their nation.
Does water boarding KSM and 2 other terrorist ring-leaders make us Nazi’s? I don’t think so…any more than allowing the alternative (thousands more innocent lives potentially lost in further terrorist plots that were thwarted).
November 15, 2011 at 4:00 am
David Housholder
Bomber Harris targeted tens of thousands of civilians directly that were nowhere near any military installations. Think Dresden. Think Cologne. Think Nagasaki. War crimes.
November 14, 2011 at 8:04 am
Jolene Anderson
Dave, for openers, we are way above the “torture” clause of most other countries. As horrible as it may seem & God forbid try to imagine how you would feel if a member of your immediate family was beheaded on tv, while you watched. What if one of them had been in the Twin Towers, talking to you on the phone with their last breath? Waterboarding??? Really? I don NOT call that sub-human torture. It is a necessary (not so evil) evil; if it would have prevented 9-11 than I think more of it should go on. The Bible states it is acceptable to get angry & retaliate when innocent persons are harmed (not retaliate in our own behalf). Scaring the wits out of terrorists is much more humane than ramming needles up their fingernails; branding, burning, etc. I think the press needs to butt out of the military; They take care of their own violations within their ranks as the soldier being tried for murder of Afghan civilians. We think we can place ourselves in the shoes of our soldiers & backseat quarterback when we have no business to do so. The Middle East has had a long time reputation for brutality; many of our soldiers want to be shot by friendly fire before taken by these creeps. They have no respect for human life. They bomb their own schools, etc. without batting an eye. We show them so much more restraint. America is too worried about popular opinion & the left worrying about everyone’s rights…that’s why there is great hotel accommodations in prisons. A cage? Really.
No, I feel we are so far advanced in our humane approach to interrogation compared to other countries that it isn’t an issue. If waterboarding would stop another attack on the USA then waterboard away, boys! We are responsible to protect the innocent & weak, not the terrorists. Are their cases where conditions get out of hand? Sure. In all things. Why don’t we send a copy of the Geneva Convention to the Middle East & tell them to play by the rules….think that would work? I don’t. I have no doubt that if we would have “butted out” of the military’s business, OBL & Saddam would have been captured LONG before they were with less cost of American troop lives. I’m sure there are hundreds of little helpless virgin girls in Iraq grateful for their demise. If a person puts themselves in a position to be used by terrorists, then they are accepting the ramifications for doing so albeit torture or waterboarding, etc. God bless America.
November 14, 2011 at 8:27 am
Lakeville
What if, what if, what if? What if Martin Luther had not been an anti-semite, would have Hitler ever come to power?
November 14, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Jolene Anderson
What I meant by my “what if” scenario was to TRY to comprehend the absolute loss the people felt that actually lost family on 9-11; that is how I try to understand all people by putting myself in their shoes.
November 14, 2011 at 8:47 am
Luke Allison
Is someone being locked in a cage “human” by anyone’s standard? Isn’t that where we put lower forms of life?
November 14, 2011 at 9:09 am
Lakeville
The United States incarcerates a higher percentage of the population than any other country in the world – often for “crimes” the rest of the world doesn’t regard as crimes. We put people in jail for smoking pot. Most of the people I know of have tried pot (including our three most recent presidents). (Jimmy Carter’s staff preferred cocaine.) Since virtually everyone is a criminal by our current justice system, why not just hold a lottery to decide who we put in jail?
November 14, 2011 at 9:02 am
Luke Allison
What does Martin Luther have to do with waterboarding?
November 14, 2011 at 9:41 am
Ann O'Barr
Many reasons can and should be given for not practicing torture on your enemies. However, one is practical. Information gained by torture often is unrealiable, simply because it is an attempt by the tortured one to stop the pain.
November 14, 2011 at 9:42 am
Jim Allmann
I agree, David. We need to re-install our civil rights and our privacy rights. These pertain to anyone on our soil, whether we fell they are friends or foe. Water-boarding, wire- tapping, body searches for no apparent reason are all verboten.
November 14, 2011 at 1:54 pm
Terry
War is Ugly. Water boarding is NOT torture. I have been shot at in 3 wars and witnessed first hand torture of our soldiers who have had every conceiveable appendage cut off and we never tolerate that conduct because we are not barbarians as our enemies.
I have been water boarded – it is not sub human, but it is about attitude and fear and you can say it is sub human but what does that mean. The 3 enemy combatants we waterboarded gave up information that saved hundreds if not thousands of American lives. The fear is the enemy not knowing if we will do it so the public should not decide what conduct, but nations have decided and our public has never witnessed the hardships nor sufferring of soldiers so really have no concept of what is sub human. Leave war to warriors as it is we who pay the price and we who are charged with and step up to ensure your freedom. Don’t announce to our enemies that we are so holy that we will never harm them. Did you know your attitudes now gain us almost no intel from captures? Did you know that our interrogations of the enemy are video-taped and sent to lawyers in Washington DC to ensure we are beyond reproach? Did you know the Islamic Jihad laugh at our softness and see this view of something as simple as making someone think they may drown as weak? Our public stating water boarding is torture invite more aggression by an enemy who thinks they are winning because our public is weak and do not want to offend anyone. We would have lost WWII if we had not been able to interrogate based on the Geneva Convention which we have followed in every war since.
November 15, 2011 at 4:01 am
David Housholder
Were you waterboarded in a controlled environment with the ability to tap out, or were you waterboarded by an enemy. Big difference.
November 15, 2011 at 4:02 am
David Housholder
McCain just came out this AM and blasted GOP candidates for approving of waterboarding. He’s been on the receiving end of all kids of torture and knows a thing or two about it.
November 16, 2011 at 11:54 am
Jolene Anderson
McCain is running in the country’s biggest popularity poll…of course he is going to go with the “popular flow.” I do NOT believe for 1 min. he actually disapproves of waterboarding (in his own heart); his position is for the candidacy.
November 15, 2011 at 8:32 pm
John Bruss
Well said Terry. The book of Romans clearly states that if you break the laws of government, you will be subject to what? The grace and mercy of Jesus? No. Rather they will be subject to the laws of the land, including those agreed to in the Geneva Convention Terrorists who seek to destroy US citizens who are captured by our honorable and self-less military are subject to the military ways and means and codes of judgement and conduct necessary to defend a nation. Parsing the nuances of water boarding (partial sophication), pain inducing drugs, isolation, heat exhaustion, in a public election discussion of torture or not torture is a great way to identify a potential WEAK commander and chief, who probably would be just as afraid to dissect a frog, for fear it might interfere with political timing and donations from PITA. Dave, as a self-described “hawk” you may have great moral vision and compassion, but are you fully aware or concerned with how an actual hawk might defend its nest? The hawk illustrates what I expect from a strong commander and chief, and there is not any need for anyone, especially those who defend our freedom to have any hesitation in dealing with those who attack innocent human beings in the name of extremist beliefs. Those who would put terrorists and torture techniques through the same filter of justice and lawyer-rich defense as a US citizen committing a crime have completely lost context and a commitment to defend a nation.
November 16, 2011 at 6:41 am
Terry
Thank you John. Your comments are also very well stated
November 16, 2011 at 6:44 am
Terry
Seriously, Have you ever been in a situation where you thought you would die – or drown? I would guess you have never been in a gunfight or near capture or seen your life pass before you. That is the lesson and my experience.
November 16, 2011 at 11:58 am
Jolene Anderson
Beautifully said, Terry. I totally agree we citizens need to stop the armchair quarterbacking of what our troops do; that is why they have commanders. Thank you for your service & dedication in protecting our homes & families aka America!
November 15, 2011 at 4:04 am
David Housholder
I just removed comments about Martin Luther. Good topic. But way off topic. We’re talking about GOP candidates and waterboarding.
November 15, 2011 at 8:16 pm
MJ
Dave,
Thanks for your reference to Bomber Harris and the RAF “area” bombing campaigns. That’s a piece of history I didn’t know about. Sounds like the Nazi bombing of London caused a reflexive reaction that went too far…and at the end of the war was not even as effective as if they had focused specifically on rail lines and other targets. Hundreds of RAF pilots and personnel would have been spared as well.
I am curious though what choice you would have made to bring Japan to surrender.
November 16, 2011 at 8:54 am
Luke Allison
Still pushing back against the notion of waterboarding being “sub-human”. As compared to what? Imprisonment? Chimpanzees live in cages in the zoo. Humans live in cages in prison. At yet this is somehow considered more humane than execution or physical punishment.
What’s more sub-human? To inflict pain or psychological trauma? Or to slowly destroy any will or purpose to live through imprisonment?
There’s no easy answer here.
When I was in the Army I knew several people on Ft. Bragg who had been waterboarded. They didn’t think much of it. Granted, it was in a controlled setting.
Is waterboarding a viable means of obtaining information? Is war a viable means of settling differences?
Isn’t combat in and of itself sub-human?
What is sub-human? How far do we extend our critique?
These are all questions that, in my opinion, flow naturally out of the initial question of this post.
December 16, 2011 at 11:48 pm
David Lund
R.I.P Christopher Hitchens. He died from cancer yesterday. He volunteered to undergo waterboarding a few years ago to see for himself. He concluded without a doubt that it is torture.
December 17, 2011 at 12:28 pm
terry
Serious RIP Christopher Hitchens – and you are taking his word for it. I don’t understand people like you who pay homage to a deceitful man like Hitchens who did nothing to advance the kingdom of Christ. one who mocked we Christians and helped lead others away from Christ. I pray you are also one of those Christians who loves on their neighbors and follows Christ’s examples so i may have peace that you are just a loving Christ-like person. If so, God Bless you – if not – respectfully get out in the real world.